This past week I have been hard at work on a story to submit to Julie Czerneda for her anthology. I hammered out characters and events and conflicts. I had reached the point where I felt like it was pretty much done. I gave it to several people to read. Nancy and Janci gave me good “tweak it here” type feedback. The third person, Chalain, dissected my 6 page story with 16 pages of commentary. When I was done reading it, I was ready to cry. I felt like crying because he was right. He’d picked everything apart and I could see very clearly that I could not leave my story the way it was. So there I was with all the pieces of my story and no idea how to put it back together again. Scattered around me all the pieces seemed to have equal value, yet they could not all fit into 5000 words.
I talked to Chalain about his review and by the end of the talk I could see where I needed to go. I get to keep the characters, events, and conflicts, but the viewpoint must change. This means jettisoning some major character development that I spent a lot of time fleshing out. So right now I’m re-writing the whole thing. I saved a draft of the other version, so I can revert to it if I want to. I probably won’t want to. By the time I’m done with this version I’ll love it as much as the other one, if not more. Unfortunately this means I am back to drafting. I was so happy to be tweaking and refining. I really hope all this effort is rewarded by acceptance into the anthology.
I’ve often listened to Janci as she talks about how her writer’s group rips apart her stories. It always sounded so hostile to me, but she always expressed gratitude that the did it. I didn’t understand, now I think I do. If the story is well made, it can’t be ripped apart. If it can be ripped apart then it needs to be made stronger. These kinds of critiques stress test the stories. No one wants to send a poorly made story out into the world. Chalain has just gotten himself permanently added to my pool of draft readers. He did me a painful, but necessary, service today.
You’re doing WHAT? Wow. I loved the viewpoint. I really hope this is what you want.
And yes, even the best made stories can be ripped apart. I rip apart every published novel I read. I wish I didn’t, but I really can’t stop myself.
You’re doing WHAT? Wow. I loved the viewpoint. I really hope this is what you want.
And yes, even the best made stories can be ripped apart. I rip apart every published novel I read. I wish I didn’t, but I really can’t stop myself.
I’ve saved the version you read intact. I’m going to write the new version and then compare the two. Perhaps the old version is right. Perhaps I’m spending time working on something that I’ll have to completely discard. But I will have learned something. Call me if you want more details.
I’ve saved the version you read intact. I’m going to write the new version and then compare the two. Perhaps the old version is right. Perhaps I’m spending time working on something that I’ll have to completely discard. But I will have learned something. Call me if you want more details.
Boo for almost crying!
Yay for not doing so and learning a very useful lesson and getting desired help!
I don’t know if I could handle such a thing as you got. I’m glad you’re of sterner stuff.
Love that icon btw, and I’m seriously growing to love your lj style…
Boo for almost crying!
Yay for not doing so and learning a very useful lesson and getting desired help!
I don’t know if I could handle such a thing as you got. I’m glad you’re of sterner stuff.
Love that icon btw, and I’m seriously growing to love your lj style…
Yay! (Sorry!)
Your story was the most mind-engaging stuff I’ve read all year. I cannot wait to see what you will do with this story. That was a major factor in how verbose my response was. I feel honored to be a part of that most vulnerable part of the writing process.
Thank you!
Yay! (Sorry!)
Your story was the most mind-engaging stuff I’ve read all year. I cannot wait to see what you will do with this story. That was a major factor in how verbose my response was. I feel honored to be a part of that most vulnerable part of the writing process.
Thank you!
It speaks strongly of your dedication to your craft – and of your confidence – that you can see the truth and value of a critique that literally disassembles your story to its component pieces.
I’m really looking forward to reading this. Best of luck with the rewrite!
It speaks strongly of your dedication to your craft – and of your confidence – that you can see the truth and value of a critique that literally disassembles your story to its component pieces.
I’m really looking forward to reading this. Best of luck with the rewrite!
Remember, the real story is in your head.
All that stuff on paper (or in electronic form) is there to allow your story to reform in the minds of your readers. When someone critiques that stuff, the goal is to fiddle with the stuff in order to help you communicate your story better from your mind to theirs.
Remember, the real story is in your head.
All that stuff on paper (or in electronic form) is there to allow your story to reform in the minds of your readers. When someone critiques that stuff, the goal is to fiddle with the stuff in order to help you communicate your story better from your mind to theirs.
Sandra,
If you actually analyzed a lot of stories that get printed – even the very good ones – you will find flaws in them. I’ve read stories that were so polished that it killed them, because they no longer contained the author’s voice.
I’m not saying that you shouldn’t seek to polish stories or make them better, but to be careful not to lose the story in an effort to polish everything. The best stories come from an honest place in a person’s heart, even in science fiction and fantasy, not from writing techniques. I’m sure your friend is a very educated and wonderful person, but 16 pages of commentary is excessive for a short story. And by all rights, he should have included what you did right too. There is no story so horrible that you didn’t do something right in it.
I found The 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes by Jack Bickham very useful in avoiding most major mistakes. Especially Mistake #30. It fits with what the research shows about creativity and my personal experience with a variety of writer groups. This best one I had ever belonged was a rare bird that used a very definite set of rules for review. The person running it originally got it from a writers magazine, but I’ve found versions of it in other writer guides.
And I have found in the past year, these guidelines are actually used in some form in formal art critiques too. That’s because some of the best works actually break the rules, but break them in a masterful way. A strict adherence to the rules produces dull works.
According to Csikszentmihalyi (1997):
– Creative people usually have a broad range of knowledge about a lot of subjects and are good at using mental imagery.
– Creative people aren’t afraid to be different — they are more open to new experiences than many people, and they tend to have more vivid dreams and daydreams than others do.
– Creative people value their independence.
– Creative people are often unconventional in their work, but not otherwise.
Sandra,
If you actually analyzed a lot of stories that get printed – even the very good ones – you will find flaws in them. I’ve read stories that were so polished that it killed them, because they no longer contained the author’s voice.
I’m not saying that you shouldn’t seek to polish stories or make them better, but to be careful not to lose the story in an effort to polish everything. The best stories come from an honest place in a person’s heart, even in science fiction and fantasy, not from writing techniques. I’m sure your friend is a very educated and wonderful person, but 16 pages of commentary is excessive for a short story. And by all rights, he should have included what you did right too. There is no story so horrible that you didn’t do something right in it.
I found The 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes by Jack Bickham very useful in avoiding most major mistakes. Especially Mistake #30. It fits with what the research shows about creativity and my personal experience with a variety of writer groups. This best one I had ever belonged was a rare bird that used a very definite set of rules for review. The person running it originally got it from a writers magazine, but I’ve found versions of it in other writer guides.
And I have found in the past year, these guidelines are actually used in some form in formal art critiques too. That’s because some of the best works actually break the rules, but break them in a masterful way. A strict adherence to the rules produces dull works.
According to Csikszentmihalyi (1997):
– Creative people usually have a broad range of knowledge about a lot of subjects and are good at using mental imagery.
– Creative people aren’t afraid to be different — they are more open to new experiences than many people, and they tend to have more vivid dreams and daydreams than others do.
– Creative people value their independence.
– Creative people are often unconventional in their work, but not otherwise.
I know exactly how you feel. I finished the 4th draft of my screenplay and I managed to get it read my someone with some good credentials and he gave me a lot of good feedback (he apologized for ipping it), but I was grateful for the information and feedback. I’ve been pondering for the last several weeks on how to fix the story and after much painstaking thought and several sleepless nights, I finally figured out the problem and I’ve almost figured out how to fix it. Good luck!!
After all, writing is rewriting!!!
I know exactly how you feel. I finished the 4th draft of my screenplay and I managed to get it read my someone with some good credentials and he gave me a lot of good feedback (he apologized for ipping it), but I was grateful for the information and feedback. I’ve been pondering for the last several weeks on how to fix the story and after much painstaking thought and several sleepless nights, I finally figured out the problem and I’ve almost figured out how to fix it. Good luck!!
After all, writing is rewriting!!!
Chalain didn’t mean for Sandra to want to cry
I read Sandra’s story and Chalain’s critique. While reading Sandra’s story I felt a lot of the same frustrations that he did. Somehow she managed to write two interesting stories that were fighting for time being told in one. Chalain put in a disclaimer that this was only his opinion, he realizes his critique is really long and he wrote so much because he wants to help her make her story go. He pointed out areas he thought needed revision, gave her suggestions and examples so she would have a jumping board for change, and told her the areas and specific sentences that he thought were brilliant and why.
Please don’t think Chalain is a big meanie because Sandra wanted to cry.
He is her very good friend and wants to see her succeed.
Chalain didn’t mean for Sandra to want to cry
I read Sandra’s story and Chalain’s critique. While reading Sandra’s story I felt a lot of the same frustrations that he did. Somehow she managed to write two interesting stories that were fighting for time being told in one. Chalain put in a disclaimer that this was only his opinion, he realizes his critique is really long and he wrote so much because he wants to help her make her story go. He pointed out areas he thought needed revision, gave her suggestions and examples so she would have a jumping board for change, and told her the areas and specific sentences that he thought were brilliant and why.
Please don’t think Chalain is a big meanie because Sandra wanted to cry.
He is her very good friend and wants to see her succeed.
The shape of the critque and the length of the critique should be dependent upon the relationship of the people involved. Chalain and I share a decade long friendship. I knew absolutely every minute that he did not intend to injure. I could tell that the reason he wrote so much was because he was so enthusiastic about the story. His enthusiasm was highly complimentary.
In this case it wasn’t polishing issues, it was basic construction that had a problem. Once I stopped stomping my feet and saying “I don’t wanna!” I knew he was right. If he had been wrong I would have dismissed the review without crying over it.
The shape of the critque and the length of the critique should be dependent upon the relationship of the people involved. Chalain and I share a decade long friendship. I knew absolutely every minute that he did not intend to injure. I could tell that the reason he wrote so much was because he was so enthusiastic about the story. His enthusiasm was highly complimentary.
In this case it wasn’t polishing issues, it was basic construction that had a problem. Once I stopped stomping my feet and saying “I don’t wanna!” I knew he was right. If he had been wrong I would have dismissed the review without crying over it.
Re: Chalain didn’t mean for Sandra to want to cry
I’m so glad you read the story too. I should have said to share it with you. I’ll be interested in hearing your opinion of the revised version.
Re: Chalain didn’t mean for Sandra to want to cry
I’m so glad you read the story too. I should have said to share it with you. I’ll be interested in hearing your opinion of the revised version.
In this case the words on the page were telling a different story than the one in my head. They were both good stories, but one had to die so that the other could live.
In this case the words on the page were telling a different story than the one in my head. They were both good stories, but one had to die so that the other could live.
Re: Chalain didn’t mean for Sandra to want to cry
I know he wasn’t being mean…
I’m still throwing balled up socks at him… 🙂
Re: Chalain didn’t mean for Sandra to want to cry
I know he wasn’t being mean…
I’m still throwing balled up socks at him… 🙂
That is good to hear. I have seen too many well-meaning people (and not so well meaning people) destroy a piece of writing through over critiquing. I have a friend who is a clinic art therapist, who creativity counsultanting on the side for writers as well as artist who’ve had their creativity severely block because of trying to do their work in a negative atmosphere – or to appease a certain group of critics. One of the first things we did together was to examine who I had in my creativity support circle in my life and even though I wasn’t experiencing a major block yet, I found my creativity productivity and quality improved dramatically by just removing a few people from my list of those I would consult with on my creative endeavors.
That is good to hear. I have seen too many well-meaning people (and not so well meaning people) destroy a piece of writing through over critiquing. I have a friend who is a clinic art therapist, who creativity counsultanting on the side for writers as well as artist who’ve had their creativity severely block because of trying to do their work in a negative atmosphere – or to appease a certain group of critics. One of the first things we did together was to examine who I had in my creativity support circle in my life and even though I wasn’t experiencing a major block yet, I found my creativity productivity and quality improved dramatically by just removing a few people from my list of those I would consult with on my creative endeavors.
Re: Chalain didn’t mean for Sandra to want to cry
I sure he is. I was just worried because of what I’ve seen happen to others in the past.
Re: Chalain didn’t mean for Sandra to want to cry
I sure he is. I was just worried because of what I’ve seen happen to others in the past.
Re: Chalain didn’t mean for Sandra to want to cry
I submit gladly. This is the price of art. 🙂
Re: Chalain didn’t mean for Sandra to want to cry
I submit gladly. This is the price of art. 🙂
Pushing Sandra
It makes me happy to see this love and protectiveness for Sandra, even if it is directed at me for being a big meanie. 🙂 I won’t defend my critique here because I agree with you all wholeheartedly in booing me for discouraging her. But Sandra hit it on the head–the length of the critique depended on our friendship. There’s a time to give encouragement and a time to give advice, and I knew she wanted the latter.
Sandra is brilliant and funny and creative and fascinating. I wanted her story to be all those things, to be as good as its maker. That is part of why my critique ran so long. Her writing never fails to ignite my imagination and excite me. That is also part of why my critique ran so long; one particular sentence worked perfectly in her draft and I spent half a page gushing about why it was perfect. But yes, most of it was criticism (hopefully constructive), and the main reason I didn’t cut it short is that I know Sandra is very, very tough. We’ve known each other for over a decade, long enough for me to push her too far a couple of times. In our friendship, too far is really, really far. I knew this critique would push her into discomfort, but that it wouldn’t even come close to her limits.
We know each other well enough to know how to ask for honesty when we want it and encouragement when we need it. And we know that when we ask for honesty, we can tell each other what we need to know and not what we want to hear. Sandra is my dear friend, and this honesty is a huge foundation stone of that friendship. I count myself lucky to have been allowed to participate in this process.
Pushing Sandra
It makes me happy to see this love and protectiveness for Sandra, even if it is directed at me for being a big meanie. 🙂 I won’t defend my critique here because I agree with you all wholeheartedly in booing me for discouraging her. But Sandra hit it on the head–the length of the critique depended on our friendship. There’s a time to give encouragement and a time to give advice, and I knew she wanted the latter.
Sandra is brilliant and funny and creative and fascinating. I wanted her story to be all those things, to be as good as its maker. That is part of why my critique ran so long. Her writing never fails to ignite my imagination and excite me. That is also part of why my critique ran so long; one particular sentence worked perfectly in her draft and I spent half a page gushing about why it was perfect. But yes, most of it was criticism (hopefully constructive), and the main reason I didn’t cut it short is that I know Sandra is very, very tough. We’ve known each other for over a decade, long enough for me to push her too far a couple of times. In our friendship, too far is really, really far. I knew this critique would push her into discomfort, but that it wouldn’t even come close to her limits.
We know each other well enough to know how to ask for honesty when we want it and encouragement when we need it. And we know that when we ask for honesty, we can tell each other what we need to know and not what we want to hear. Sandra is my dear friend, and this honesty is a huge foundation stone of that friendship. I count myself lucky to have been allowed to participate in this process.
Re: Pushing Sandra
Thank you for your reply and I don’t think you’re a big meanie after reading it. Like I said, I was just a bit worried because of patterns I’ve seen happen too often in the past.
Re: Pushing Sandra
Thank you for your reply and I don’t think you’re a big meanie after reading it. Like I said, I was just a bit worried because of patterns I’ve seen happen too often in the past.